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SeraphTC

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #15 on: Apr 13th, 2011, 6:44pm »

Actually, whilst it's come up, are there any other blatent piles of turd that offer very little to the overall story and can/should be avoided at all costs!?
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Nick

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #16 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 01:06am »

on Apr 13th, 2011, 6:44pm, SeraphTC wrote:
Actually, whilst it's come up, are there any other blatent piles of turd that offer very little to the overall story and can/should be avoided at all costs!?


The aforementioned City Of Crime is set just before War Games, it's the only one I can think off offhand that is worse than Fortunate Son! It is so bad I actually ejected it from my Continuity shelf! Like many people here I try to make things fit the best I can, but this simply had to go!

As for others that both suck and contribute nothing, I put forward:

New Gotham: Evolution

Joker's Last Laugh

Bruce Wayne: Murder/Fugitive (Other than some minor David Cain stuff and some tiny No Man's Land Lex Luthor followup this entire abortion is pointless).

Hush Returns (read the final two issues of Gotham Knights then skip straight to Heart Of Hush)

Gotham Underground

Even though I didn't hate these next two, I'd still throw Faces and Blind Justice into the 'didn't like and add nothing' list.

Sadly the rest of the books that a uber suck (that stand out on a quick glance) on my continuity shelf all contain relevant plot developments.
---

Also Snipe, the only post-crisis Dick as Robin book I can think of offhand is Full Circle, which is contained in later printings of Year Two; I must say I actually quite liked that one. smiley There also was The Gauntlet one shot which bridged the gap between Dark Victory and Robin: Year One very tidily - so much so, if I'm recalling correctly the first few pages of Year One are directly referencing the events in this book.

There was also that Batman Begins tie in Scarecrow: Year One I mentioned, but that's better off totally ignored, as are all of the Nolan movie tie in Year One's because none really fit in with the established continuity.
« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2011, 01:14am by Nick » User IP Logged

SeraphTC

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #17 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 04:08am »

Thanks Nick,

I've not ordered any of those, so I guess my instincts are working ok so far wink

I've had 'The Dark Knight Returns', 'Gothic' and 'The Killing Joke' arrive this morning smiley
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TurkeyMoose

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #18 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 04:29am »

I realized some time ago that Nick is rather cynical about comics and it seems difficult to impress him, so not everything he says is bad is actually that bad. I like most of the stories that he says are bad in his last post. I particularly enjoyed the Murderer/Fugitive storyline. The only one he mentions that I don't remember very well is Gotham Underground. I can't remember if I liked it or not. I do agree with him about City of Crime and Faces, though.

Probably the worst story I've ever read was Journey Into Knight. Stay away from that one. Although, you seem to be focusing just on TPBs and I don't think that one was ever collected as a TPB, so you probably wouldn't have even considered it. But just in case, stay away from it! sad
« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2011, 04:30am by TurkeyMoose » User IP Logged

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SeraphTC

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #19 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 04:42am »

Well I'm pretty cynical myself to be honest wink

I have to keep the bar raised or I'll end up buying *everything* - not only do I not have the room for that but the wife will probably resort to violence wink

Thanks for the extra advice though - it's all welcome smiley
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SeraphTC

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #20 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 07:34am »

Hmm...kind of wishing I hadn't really bothered with 'Gothic'...it's Ok I guess...but...well...it's a little more 'supernatural' than I was expecting considering it's not Elseworlds.

I get that there is some info in there that could be taken as canon, but it just all seems a bit...far fetched. (I know...we're talking about a guy who dresses as a bat in a comic book...).

I guess I'm finding that I prefer my 'canon' BatBooks as grounded in plausable reality as possible (unless they are quite blatently Elseworlds).

As such, I think I'm actually going to stick that one in my 'Other Stuff' section.

Once my current batch of orders arrive, I will own:

'Year One' :

Batman: Year One
Catwoman: Her Sisters Keeper
Shaman
Four of a Kind
Prey
Haunted Night
The Long Halloween
Terror
Snow
Dark Victory
Catwoman: When in Rome
The Gauntlet
Robin: Year One

'ElseWorlds' :
Batman/Vampire
Holy Terror
Gotham by Gaslight


'Other Stuff' :
Arkham Asylum
The Dark Knight Returns
Catwoman Annual 2
Gothic

'Much Later Stuff' :
Hush

I'm kind of seeing Robin: Year One as a nice end point to my 'Year One' section - is that reasonable? Is there anything from the list that really needs to be there in terms of essential story?
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Nick

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #21 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 09:03am »

on Apr 14th, 2011, 04:29am, TurkeyMoose wrote:
I realized some time ago that Nick is rather cynical about comics and it seems difficult to impress him,


I wont argue that point tongue But the beauty of it is that when something does impress me I know it has to be pretty goddamn good. And there is a lot that I love, I just tend to talk about the things I dislike more because there is often more to say about them.

But as a whole I didn't like the period between No Man's Land and Hush, I thought those few years were extremely weak for Batman. After Bruce Wayne: Murderer I even considered dropping my Batman books entirely because the last few books had been so awful. But at that point I only had Batman books, I soon discovered that the Nightwing and Catwoman series were riding a beautiful beautiful wave of joy at that time.

I would actually say that we are currently in the most eclectic place Batman has ever been simply because there are so any monthly publications. In all honesty I think there are far too many, and it's causing all hell of continuity problems with timing because so much is supposed to be going on at once.

I think right now we're getting some of the best stuff we've ever had - such as Grant Morrison's epic run of joy and the initial Batgirl run when Lee Garbett was the regular artisit. But we're also getting some almighty crap that should just not be allowed like Tony Daniel's bastardisation of the Batman name and any book unfortunate enough to be tainted by Dustin Nguyen's attempts at pencilling.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #22 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 09:47am »

I completely forgot about 'The Killing Joke' and 'Night Cries' when I put that list together 'The Killing Joke' actually arrived this morning. smiley

I've read a little - *really* enjoying it so far. I know it's a little wrong, and *very* dark, but I did laugh out loud at the 'coffee table edition'.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #23 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 4:31pm »

With regard to my little 'Year One' collection:

Where do 'Batgirl Year One', 'Batman Batgirl', and 'Nightwing Year One' fit in?

Are they canon at all? Are they worth bothering with?

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TurkeyMoose

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #24 on: Apr 14th, 2011, 9:50pm »

on Apr 14th, 2011, 07:34am, SeraphTC wrote:
Hmm...kind of wishing I hadn't really bothered with 'Gothic'...it's Ok I guess...but...well...it's a little more 'supernatural' than I was expecting considering it's not Elseworlds.


I actually kind of liked Gothic after I read it recently. I had read it once a long time ago and didn't really care for it, but I had a newfound appreciation for it the second time I read it. Perhaps it was a subconscious effect of noticing that it was written by Grant Morrison (which I guess I didn't really pay attention to when I read it years ago), so I assumed it would be good, therefore I thought it was good. I don't know.


on Apr 14th, 2011, 09:03am, Nick wrote:
I wont argue that point tongue But the beauty of it is that when something does impress me I know it has to be pretty goddamn good. And there is a lot that I love, I just tend to talk about the things I dislike more because there is often more to say about them.


I can see the merit in that, but I usually try to keep my standards in the middle rather than really high. By definition, mediocrity is not bad. Mediocrity is related to words like "medium" and "middle", which implies that something regarded as mediocre is right in the middle between good and bad, which means the glass if either half full or half empty depending on whether one is more optimistic or pessimistic. I try to be optimistic about not just comics, but all art in general. Certainly mediocrity is not something to be striven for, but when something falls short of greatness and into that realm of mediocrity, I can say "well at least it's not bad". In essence, I'm pretty easy to impress, which I suppose could be seen as a flaw, but I see it as a virtue. smiley


on Apr 14th, 2011, 09:03am, Nick wrote:
But as a whole I didn't like the period between No Man's Land and Hush, I thought those few years were extremely weak for Batman. After Bruce Wayne: Murderer I even considered dropping my Batman books entirely because the last few books had been so awful. But at that point I only had Batman books, I soon discovered that the Nightwing and Catwoman series were riding a beautiful beautiful wave of joy at that time.


The period between No Man's Land and Hush was actually one of my favorite eras. The DC Universe just seemed more cohesive in that era than it ever had been before. I remember the last time I was doing a chronological read-through of my shelves, I guess it was in mid-2008 that I was reading that era and I started really enjoying it so much that I was going through them at a much faster pace than everything I had been reading before that, and before I knew it I was already up to War Games. smiley

But I think my favorite era in Batman history was the period between A Death in the Family and Knightfall. And my least favorite era was probably the period between Prodigal and Cataclysm; although I did kind of enjoy the Contagion and Legacy storylines that happened during that time, but in general I didn't really enjoy most of the stories in that era.


on Apr 14th, 2011, 4:31pm, SeraphTC wrote:
With regard to my little 'Year One' collection:

Where do 'Batgirl Year One', 'Batman Batgirl', and 'Nightwing Year One' fit in?

Are they canon at all? Are they worth bothering with?


In relation to everything else you have, Batgirl: Year One should go right after Robin: Year One. A few years are supposed to happen in between them but there aren't many stories that chronicle that classic "dynamic duo" era. If you wanted something to put between them, you could check out Ego and Full Circle. Both are perfectly decent, but not really essential. Full Circle is a follow-up to Year Two, so if you have Year Two on the shelf, Full Circle would be good to have as well.

Nightwing: Year One happens some years later, chronicling Robin's transition into Nightwing. In relation to everything else you have, it would just go right after Batman Batgirl. However, if you wanted to fill in some of the time between them, I would recommend Tales of the Demon and Strange Apparitions. Tales of the Demon is pretty good and very essential to continuity, chronicling Batman's earliest encounters with one of his most fearsome opponents, Ra's Al Ghul. Strange Apparitions is also quite good, in my opinion. They both happen in the time period in which Dick Grayson was still Robin but had gone off to college and was primarily working alone. He appears in both of those stories but in a relatively minor role. Oh, and also maybe look into Dark Detective, which was written as a follow-up to Strange Apparitions. It's not as good, but still decent if I remember correctly and it's nice to have as a companion to Strange Apparitions.
« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2011, 9:56pm by TurkeyMoose » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #25 on: Apr 15th, 2011, 01:07am »

My shelf around this era goes as so (and I know I'm missing a lot here), some of the placements are up for debate:

Robin: Year One
Faces
Fortunate Son
Catwoman: Defiant
Batgirl: Year One
Huntress: Year One
Birds Of Prey: Batgirl/Catwoman #1 of 2 (2nd part is set YEARS later)
Batgirl (1997)
Nightwing: Year One
The Killing Joke
The Cult
Blind Justice
A Death In The Family
The Many Deaths Of The Batman
A Lonely PLace Of Dying
Robin: A Hero Reborn
The Last Arkham
Sword Of Azrael

And then the epics start hitting with Knightfall, but we'll save that discussion for another day. This lightspeed runthrough of Batman chronology is fun! cheesy


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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #26 on: Apr 15th, 2011, 01:12am »

on Apr 14th, 2011, 9:50pm, TurkeyMoose wrote:
However, if you wanted to fill in some of the time between them, I would recommend Tales of the Demon and Strange Apparitions. Tales of the Demon is pretty good and very essential to continuity, chronicling Batman's earliest encounters with one of his most fearsome opponents, Ra's Al Ghul. Strange Apparitions is also quite good, in my opinion. They both happen in the time period in which Dick Grayson was still Robin but had gone off to college and was primarily working alone. He appears in both of those stories but in a relatively minor role. Oh, and also maybe look into Dark Detective, which was written as a follow-up to Strange Apparitions. It's not as good, but still decent if I remember correctly and it's nice to have as a companion to Strange Apparitions.


These are not continuity as such... Well is complicated isn't it. Strange Apparations is Pre-Crisis and as far as I'm aware 100% gone from current Canon. Dark Detective is the modern (still out of Continuity) follow up. But then aspects of these stories such as the Silver St Cloud romance remain, while the actual stories depicted do not. Complicated I know.

Same goes for Tales Of The Demon. The overall concepts remain in modern Continuity, but these Pre-Crisis tales as depicted here are not.

All in all these books are good for background imformation. In a way see them as giving you an interpretation of the legend of what happened during this period, but the events exacty as depicted are incompatable with Post-Crisis Continuity.

This is heavy! Ha ha.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #27 on: Apr 15th, 2011, 02:26am »

I don't really see how they're incompatible with post-Crisis continuity. There is no mention of the multiverse or anything. I've always felt that most things in Batman's life since about 1970 remained intact after the Crisis. Unlike a lot of other characters, such as Superman and Wonder Woman, Batman's life was not turned completely upside down by the Crisis, so a lot of that stuff still fits perfectly into the continuity, and in some cases is actually essential, since Ra's Al Ghul's first appearance has never been chronicled in any prequel story. Also, though it's not relevant to Batman, another example of a pre-Crisis story that is still very relevant to modern DC continuity is the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run in the early 1970s which chronicles Speedy's heroin addiction, which is still brought up quite a bit in today's comics. And on the topic of Speedy, he was in Teen Titans: Year One (2008), which makes a direct reference to Brave and the Bold #54 (1964). The quote was by Aqualad: "Since we worked together to fight Mr. Twister*, you guys were the only ones I could think of to help." And the footnote reads "*Editor's note: The Brave and the Bold, Vol. 1 #54". So it would seem that at least some things written pre-Crisis are still officially a part of post-Crisis continuity, contrary to the popular belief that everything before 1985 was wiped out. Just my two cents. User Image
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #28 on: Apr 15th, 2011, 10:05am »

Awesome stuff guys! Thanks!

I have a few issues with some of the pre crisis stuff - in this instance it's not really whether it's canon or not, it's just the writing style from that period...it *grates* a touch. I don't really enjoy it based on the samples I've looked at.

I'm having real problems locating 'Nightwing Year One'. Can you guys recommend anything? I'm in the UK. I've been hunting around ebay and amazon and a UK online comic store I located, but I'm not having any luck.

I tried the most local store, but as it's out of print and they don't deal with second hand stock, they can't get it.

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #29 on: Apr 15th, 2011, 11:35am »

on Apr 15th, 2011, 10:05am, SeraphTC wrote:
I'm having real problems locating 'Nightwing Year One'. Can you guys recommend anything? I'm in the UK. I've been hunting around ebay and amazon and a UK online comic store I located, but I'm not having any luck.


I know this feeling all too well. From my experience just keep a regular watch on eBay and Amazon. Most of my rare finds these days either come from eBay or my local comic shop in Ipswich.

If you start going to conventions start taking your shopping list because you never know what you may find. I've come back laden down with bags of stuff, I've also had times I've left with absolutely nothing at all! The big ones are Memorabilia in Birmingham and the London Conventions. I'll link you at the end of this post.

In my opinion, all that I have attended have been going significantly downhill over the years. For example the London Film & Comic Con 2010 had exactly ONE stall dedicated to DC back issues! rolleyes But on the plus side Greg Rucka was signing and insisted on doing so for free! He was a truly lovely guy who simply loved his job, if you ever get the chance to meet him I highly recommend it smiley.

I'd also keep an eye out for small conventions and even car boot sales. I have a friend who has found some interesting TPBs at boot sales that even I don't have.

Whereabouts in the UK are you? I went to University in Sheffield, and the North of England has this tiny convention that would visit our University, they were called "Golden Orbit". Believe it or not you could discover some amazing finds in such a low key event. I got things like the (at the time) much sought after Man Who Laughs (pre-reprint) for 1 and Harley Quinn (her 1999 Continuity first appearance) for 3-5!

Anyway, here are links to of the UK Conventions that I am aware of and are geared towards this sort of thing:

http://www.memorabilia.co.uk/birmingham/
http://www.memorabilia.co.uk/london/
http://www.londonfilmandcomiccon.com/
http://www.londonexpo.com/
http://collectormania.com/miltonkeynes/
http://www.collectormaniaglasgow.co.uk/
http://www.kapowcomiccon.com/
http://www.goldenorbit.co.uk/goldenorbit/Frames2.htm

Good luck! I'd also keep an eye out for Prodigal and Legacy, these are two long out of print books that are highly sought after. Prodigal especially is important, and a great read! smiley



« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2011, 11:39am by Nick » User IP Logged

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