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SeraphTC

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #60 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 06:05am »

I've had a few deliveries this morning, so I've updated my list on page 3 of this thread.

I know it starts getting a bit patchy after KnightsEnd - I'll be looking to link that up with 'Contagion' once I get paid at the end of this week.

I know that the 'KnightQuest' story arcs are missing from the collected Knightfall books - are they worth trying to acquire? If 'Knightfall/Knightsend' and what follows is going to make sense without trying to hunt down the two 'KnightQuest' lines then I'd like to avoid them if I can - it's a heck of a lot of individual OOP comics!
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #61 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 08:08am »

With regards to linking things up with Contagion and Ra's Al Ghul...

What is the current status of his origins etc? AFAIK 'Tales of the Demon' is way out of continuity. Are there any 'Year One' ish stories I should be looking at?

Where do Son, Bride and Birth fit in?
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Nick

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #62 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 08:08am, SeraphTC wrote:
With regards to linking things up with Contagion and Ra's Al Ghul...

What is the current status of his origins etc? AFAIK 'Tales of the Demon' is way out of continuity. Are there any 'Year One' ish stories I should be looking at?

Where do Son, Bride and Birth fit in?


Despite the fact that Tales Of The Demon is not in, the general idea of what it depicted has been retained. I keep it on my Non-Continuity and Elseworlds shelf for general reference. There is a lot that is clearly 100% incompatable, but the general themes and concepts of how the two met is generally accepted, it just hasn't been retold because it's not all that interesting. In fact I personally find Ra's Al Ghul to be a very dull character.

Son/Bride/Birth Of The Demon are effectively elseworlds. They're on a level like Arkham Asylum or Harvest Breed where they're not totally reinvented like Dark Joker The Wild etc, but they clearly don't fit in. On the surface it might seem like Batman & Son is the sequel to Son Of The Demon, and DC even promoted it as such. But it's not, Batman & Son took the idea of that book and ran with it, but references events 10 years previously that have never been shown in any book (except in the Morrison flashbacks in his epic ongoing series)

Oh, and avoid the Ra's Al Ghul: Year One that was released alongside Batman Begins. It is awful, it is truly awful, and it is irrelevant and pointless.
---

As for Knightquest, that's a tough one really. I have bits of it, and some of the stuff is absolutely VITAL. It amazes me DC never collected it because Knightsend makes practically no sense whatsoever if you don't know the events of Knightquest because so much happens to both Bruce and Paul! Also Knightquest leads straight into Robin: Flying Solo, which is a good book and a good introduction for the legendary Stephanie Brown (a character of extreme importance and awesomeness much later on in proceedings).

Nonethess, if you want a quick fix to the problem then this contains everything you need: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Batman-Knightfall-Audio-Various-Artists/dp/0563510994/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1303831310&sr=8-4

For this reason I've not persued the collecting of Knightquest as much as I should have done because it's already told well in the radio drama. I haven't listened to it in what feels like forever. In fact I have it on tape! Not sure how it would hold up to adult ears but I think it's worth a try at least.

You'll find a simmilar problem with Cataclysm and No Mans Land, as the entire Aftershock and Road To No Man's Land were never collected. I'll wait for someone else to give their opinions on that because I've actually never read them... huh
---

If you eventually branch out into Catwoman and Nightwing (which I highly recommend), DC's treatment of these will royally piss you off. Both have huge chunks in the middle that were never collected for unknown reason, and when the TPBs pick up again they make absolutely no sense because so much important stuff was missing! With Nightwing especially you lose some of the most important events in Dick Grayson's entire life! It's an entire deconstruction of the man down to his absolute lowest point leaving him broken down in every way, and the beautifully told rebuilding of him into a stronger and better man. In fact it's the rebuilding that is collected in TPBs Mobbed Up and Renegade - but it loses all power and meaning without the uncollected issues:

If you decide to pick up Nightwing then you NEED #70-93 and #99-100.

smiley
« Last Edit: Apr 26th, 2011, 09:41am by Nick » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #63 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 09:58am »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 06:05am, SeraphTC wrote:
I know that the 'KnightQuest' story arcs are missing from the collected Knightfall books - are they worth trying to acquire?


They're not really necessary. There is one story arc from the second Knightfall book that gets wrapped up during the KnightQuest era, but it's not really that important. If anything, just get the Bruce Wayne issues (The Search) and leave out the Jean Paul Valley issues (The Crusade). Nothing really important happens in The Crusade except Jean Paul becoming more and more crazy. The Search actually does wrap up some important plot lines, but they're still not totally necessary. Oh, and Alfred leaves Bruce during that time and doesn't come back until after Prodigal.

If you're interested in any solo Robin stuff, you could pick up Robin: Flying Solo. It collects the first 6 issues of his ongoing solo series and takes place during the KnightQuest era. It involves Jean Paul deciding he doesn't need a Robin and kicking Tim out. The first issue actually segues directly from an issue of Detective Comics which itself is continued from the previous issue. So if you do decide to pick up Flying Solo, you might want to grab the single issues of Detective Comics #667-668 as well.


on Apr 26th, 2011, 08:08am, SeraphTC wrote:
With regards to linking things up with Contagion and Ra's Al Ghul...

What is the current status of his origins etc? AFAIK 'Tales of the Demon' is way out of continuity. Are there any 'Year One' ish stories I should be looking at?


It is my understanding that Tales of the Demon is his only origin story. There's really nothing about it that suggests it should be out of continuity, except for the mere fact that it was written before 1985. But DC never published any Ra's Al Ghul "Year One" stories. Instead, they simply printed a collected volume of his 1970s stories (Tales of the Demon), which I believe is supposed to serve as his origin story.

I'm actually coming up on his origin in my own chronological readings, but I'm ridiculous, so instead of reading the Tales of the Demon TPB, I actually have all the single issues from it and they are spread around in their proper order relative to other important issues from that era. rolleyes I tend to do that with TPBs that collect issues that take place over many years; I'll buy the single issues and divide them up so each individual story goes where it needs to go on the timeline. shocked


on Apr 26th, 2011, 08:08am, SeraphTC wrote:
Where do Son, Bride and Birth fit in?


As far as I know, Son of the Demon is the only one of those that is in continuity. For a long time it was considered out of continuity, largely because of just how ridiculously out-of-character Batman behaves, but recent developments in Batman's life suggest that it is now in continuity.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #64 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 10:27am »

Nick and I seem to have a habit of contradicting one another in this thread. tongue I didn't even read his post until I was done with mine and now I see some of his advice is the total opposite of mine. rolleyes

on Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am, Nick wrote:
Despite the fact that Tales Of The Demon is not in, the general idea of what it depicted has been retained. I keep it on my Non-Continuity and Elseworlds shelf for general reference. There is a lot that is clearly 100% incompatable


What exactly is 100% incompatible?


on Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am, Nick wrote:
In fact I personally find Ra's Al Ghul to be a very dull character.


Why is he a dull character?


on Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am, Nick wrote:
Oh, and avoid the Ra's Al Ghul: Year One that was released alongside Batman Begins. It is awful, it is truly awful, and it is irrelevant and pointless.


At least we agree on something! cheesy


on Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am, Nick wrote:
You'll find a simmilar problem with Cataclysm and No Mans Land, as the entire Aftershock and Road To No Man's Land were never collected. I'll wait for someone else to give their opinions on that because I've actually never read them... huh


Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Aftershock and Road to No Man's Land are actually pretty essential, especially Road to No Man's Land. That definitely should have been collected in a TPB. You don't really understand what's going on at the beginning of No Man's Land if you haven't read Road to No Man's Land.


on Apr 26th, 2011, 09:33am, Nick wrote:
If you eventually branch out into Catwoman and Nightwing (which I highly recommend), DC's treatment of these will royally piss you off. Both have huge chunks in the middle that were never collected for unknown reason, and when the TPBs pick up again they make absolutely no sense because so much important stuff was missing! With Nightwing especially you lose some of the most important events in Dick Grayson's entire life! It's an entire deconstruction of the man down to his absolute lowest point leaving him broken down in every way, and the beautifully told rebuilding of him into a stronger and better man. In fact it's the rebuilding that is collected in TPBs Mobbed Up and Renegade - but it loses all power and meaning without the uncollected issues:

If you decide to pick up Nightwing then you NEED #70-93 and #99-100.smiley


Positive remarks! I love it! cheesy And I agree! The Nightwing and Catwoman series are extremely great and definitely worth reading in their entirety. smiley

(That's the second Catwoman series, by the way; the one that started in 2002. The 1993 series is nothing special.)
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #65 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 11:48am »

wow....ok....quite a lot missing from the TPB's then!

Nice job DC....

So, with regards to what I have already - what should I be going for next?

I'm assuming that I should be hunting for as much KnightQuest as I can afford (which will probably just be 'The Search') and maybe Flying Solo?

What about immediately post-KnightsEnd?

I'm currently looking at Azrael 36-40 and Prodigal - although if the whole Alfred leaving thing is covered in 'The Search' I guess I should hunt down 'Nightwing: Ties That Bind' as well?
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #66 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 12:46pm »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 11:48am, SeraphTC wrote:
wow....ok....quite a lot missing from the TPB's then!

Nice job DC....

So, with regards to what I have already - what should I be going for next?

I'm assuming that I should be hunting for as much KnightQuest as I can afford (which will probably just be 'The Search') and maybe Flying Solo?

What about immediately post-KnightsEnd?

I'm currently looking at Azrael 36-40 and Prodigal - although if the whole Alfred leaving thing is covered in 'The Search' I guess I should hunt down 'Nightwing: Ties That Bind' as well?


I have to say, I quite enjoyed the early issues of the Azrael series. I really liked the mood of it and it had great supporting characters. It was one of the few great things to happen immediately after Prodigal. If you like Azrael at all, you should check out some of those issues. Maybe start out with the first 9 issues to see if you like it and then go from there. It remained consistently good for a few years but then went downhill after No Man's Land.

And yes, Ties That Bind would be good to have since that includes the story Alfred's Return where Nightwing goes to London to find Alfred. But Alfred's physical return to Wayne Manor is chronicled in Batman #521-522. It's actually a very minor aspect of those issues and it can get messy because I believe they make references to the previous few issues, so then you'd have to get those, and none of them are that important, so you might as well skip all those single issues altogether. Ties That Bind should suffice for chronicling Alfred's return.

The only other Batman-related TPB I have between Prodigal and Contagion is Black Canary/Oracle/Huntress: Birds of Prey. I don't know if you would be interested in that.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #67 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 1:58pm »

The main problem I have with Tales Of The Demon, other than the campy writing, is the inclusion of the original yellow costumed Kathy Kane Batwoman who simply does not exist in modern Continuity. It just doesn't work for me. Have to say the artwork in the book is awesome though.

And yes, the latest series of Catwoman is the good one. In fact the first few trades written by Brubaker are some of the greatest stuff in the Batman universe I think I've ever read!

One of these days I'll fill in the Knightquest and No Mans Land blanks. I know some of it is referenced heavily in TPB 5 and I'd quite like to see the Wayne VS Congress stuff.
---

Nightwing Ties That Bind is a good book, the opening chapter is all about Alfred and that ties in really well to the period of change between Prodigal and Contagion. The rest of the book introduces us to Nightwing's most famous costume and is a good book of character development for him. Not as good as what came later, but it's recommended and the best place to start!
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #68 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 2:43pm »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 1:58pm, Nick wrote:
The main problem I have with Tales Of The Demon, other than the campy writing, is the inclusion of the original yellow costumed Kathy Kane Batwoman who simply does not exist in modern Continuity. It just doesn't work for me. Have to say the artwork in the book is awesome though.


Oh yeahhh. I forgot about that. You're right, that part doesn't fit. Although, I don't believe she was actually in her Batwoman costume in the story. She could have just been a friend of Batman or something. undecided

But wait a minute... I was just checking my facts on Wikipedia and I discovered this:

"The Kathy Kane version of Batwoman was restored to modern continuity by writer Grant Morrison in flashback sequences in various issues of his run on the Batman-related titles, most explicitly in Batman Inc. #4 (2011). This issue reveals the origin of the original Batwoman in current DC Universe continuity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Kane#Kathy_Kane_.281956.E2.80.931979.29

shocked

Anyway, as for the campy writing, all 1970s comics were pretty campy. I'm actually just starting to read a lot of them right now because that's where I am in my chronological readings. I'm getting used to the writing pretty quickly though, probably because I just came off reading a few 1960s comics, and these 1970s comics are a breath of fresh air compared to those. grin


on Apr 26th, 2011, 1:58pm, Nick wrote:
And yes, the latest series of Catwoman is the good one. In fact the first few trades written by Brubaker are some of the greatest stuff in the Batman universe I think I've ever read!


Agreed! My personal favorite is the third TPB of the series, Relentless. cheesy
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #69 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 3:06pm »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 2:43pm, TurkeyMoose wrote:
"The Kathy Kane version of Batwoman was restored to modern continuity by writer Grant Morrison in flashback sequences in various issues of his run on the Batman-related titles, most explicitly in Batman Inc. #4 (2011). This issue reveals the origin of the original Batwoman in current DC Universe continuity."



Um, in case you guys haven't noticed, Morrison restored EVERYTHING back into continuity. Remember Dick telling Tim about the time Batman was experimenting with drugs and he hallucinated that they were time traveling, changing dimensions, etc.?
Recently, the original Batwoman has appeared in flashbacks in Batman, Inc.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #70 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 3:12pm »

KnightQuest is the entire story of JPV / Azrael as Batman. If you care about that, get it. If not, I don't see that it's vital, as the only info you need is:
1. he flipped out and got overzealous
2. he allowed a villain to die (as opposed to killing one)
Both of these are mentioned well enough in KnightsEnd.

I agree that Brubaker's Catwoman is damn good. Also, his (and Rucka's) Gotham Central. Not Batman-centric at all, but a very, very good book.
I'm a NW fan, so I can't really say. The Dixon stuff was fun. The Grayson stuff started out pretty high, but ended very low. When Tomasi got on board, it was as good as it ever was. The guy before him didn't exist smiley
I do wish they'd go back and TPB all the Nightwing, Catwoman, BoP, and Robin stuff. It's a shame they left out so much.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #71 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 4:37pm »

I'm slightly confused as to how Robin #1 fits in as part of the KnightQuest storyline? It seems to have been written in 1991, whilst KQ was 1993 I believe?

--EDIT

I think I realised my mistake. I guess the one I found was from Robin Vol 1, and I need to find Robin Vol 2 Issue 1.

Is this the issue 1 included in Flying Solo?
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #72 on: Apr 26th, 2011, 5:02pm »

Aside from the apparent lack of Robin #1 and Robin #7 (Are these necessary??) do these auctions for KnightQuest look complete??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BATMAN-KNIGHTQUEST-CRUSADE-NM-MINT-SET-24-BOOKS-1993-/310307716264?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483fc7fca8

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BATMAN-KNIGHTQUEST-SEARCH-NM-MINT-SET-10-BOOKS-/310312148879?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48400b9f8f
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #73 on: Apr 27th, 2011, 01:27am »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 2:43pm, TurkeyMoose wrote:
Agreed! My personal favorite is the third TPB of the series, Relentless. cheesy


Relentless really was the perfect choice for a name, that book was intense! Absolutely perfect, it's a shame that the follow-up material with Black Mask never got collected.
---

As for the Morrison stuff, he said he was treating the entire history as one guy's life. But all the Pre-Crisis stuff can very easily be put down to crazy hallucinations. Because, to be fair, Morrison's Batman is even more of a lunatic than 'normal' Batman, who was already a lunatic to start with. Ah Morrison sure is a grand old fellow.

I like to think of Year One as the start of his life, rather than some cosmic reboot where he's starting all over again repeating the same old stuff. For that reason I disregard Pre-Crisis stuff. As such Batman's hallacinations of such things I put down to his innate insanity pushed even more overboard by Darkseid and Dr Hurt.

Nonetheless, as previously mentioned, some stuff like Tales Of The Demon is generally kept thematically in Continuity of how the two men met, although was never retold in like many other origin stories which became the definitives, such as Snow for Mr Freeze which became his definitive origin for modern Continuity.
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xx Re: Reading Order
« Reply #74 on: Apr 27th, 2011, 05:09am »

on Apr 26th, 2011, 5:02pm, SeraphTC wrote:
Aside from the apparent lack of Robin #1 and Robin #7 (Are these necessary??) do these auctions for KnightQuest look complete??


http://thedcu.net/batman/bat_kqthecrusade.html
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