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 poll_icon  Poll  Poll Question: Did you like Steph as Robin?
Yes VotesVotesVotes 3 (30%)
No VotesVotesVotes 5 (50%)
Haven't read / No opinion VotesVotesVotes 1 (10%)
I was not aware of this ever happening VotesVotesVotes 1 (10%)
Total votes: 10  
 hotthread  Author  Topic: Did you like Steph as Robin?  (Read 8814 times)
Nick

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xx Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Thread started on: Nov 14th, 2005, 1:07pm »

Like most of the excessive supporting cast in Batman continuity today I never really cared about the Spoiler, to me she was just another expendable extra who only diminished the character of Batman further. However I really did enjoy her character as Robin, not only was it different, but it was interesting (to me at least).

I see it as unfortunate that most of her brief run was written by Bill Willingham who is completely incapable of writing the character of the Batman and many of the supporting roles. He had written Tim Drake as a complete child, which still baffles me as he acts infinately less mature under Willingham's reign than he did years before in Knightfall!

I also see it as unfortunate that Damion Scott handled her run on the art side, as I like realism in my comics and he draws everybody as chidren, which in fairness to the guy is how they are written. He is an improvement over his vile predecessors of Francisco Rodrigues de la Fuente and Aaron Sowd; but do DC have any standards nowadays?

Despite my dislike for all of these contributers I surprised to feel a strong connection with the character for the first time. She seemed extremely likable and interesting despite her intended flaws, which is something I hadn't really felt before. Having recently read "Robin: A Hero Reborn" and looking back over "A Lonely Place of Dying" I find her a much more successful and likable rookie Robin than Tim Drake ever was. I don't deny that by Knightfall, Drake was himself a mature and invaluable character; but I wish we could have seen Steph in the role to see what she made of it if given the time to develop it further like Drake was given.

One thing out of the run that was very successful in my view was Detective Comics #796. Although obviously Steph had her flaws as intended (as no doubt any rookie would have), I loved seeing her character written and (especially) drawn correctly. When seeing realistic depictions like that it makes the childish scrawls from the likes of Scott (etc) more unbearable than ever. And I also loved seeing her intereact with Zsasz who in my eye is a great villian, however perhaps slightly out of character, or was that just me?

So am I alone in actually liking Steph as Robin? I myself find it odd that I actually enjoyed such an obvious publicity stunt. And please DC, let the girl sleep. You know, it actually does suck when you bring every goddamn dead person back from the grave. *Sigh*
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #1 on: Nov 14th, 2005, 2:15pm »

I too liked Steph as Robin, and I think the main reason was that she was so different than the other Robins before her (though her attitude could be compared to Jason's). It was refreshing to see a dynamic Robin who wasn't a black haired adolestent boy.

I agree with you on the art and Willingham's writing, I think I've only enjoyed a handful of his issues on Robin, and the Dectective Comics issue with Steph was by far the best book with her in the role.

Though, I don't really miss her. It makes sense to me that she would one day get in over her head and I'm glad she got a chance to really shine before War Games.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #2 on: Nov 15th, 2005, 07:15am »

on Nov 14th, 2005, 2:15pm, datura wrote:
(though her attitude could be compared to Jason's).


Yes I picked up on that too. However I felt she was more eager to please Batman and that's why she always did what she did. Jason thought he could handle it all himself and so went in full force and got in way over his head.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #3 on: Nov 15th, 2005, 8:00pm »

I liked her. It was fun/amusing/cool seeing these exact oppisates--Batman, the dark loner, and Steph, the bubbly teen--working together.

Her best stuff was her issue in Detective where they went against Zsasz. She was young, new, slightly jokey/campy, but when the shit went down, she got serious and just as hard as Batman. I mean, she BIT ZSASZ'S NOSE OUT AND SPAT IT OUT. That's fuckin' hardcore right there.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #4 on: Nov 15th, 2005, 8:27pm »

I'd like it if the comics addressed the fact that Steph would still be alive if Batman had not fired her.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #5 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 06:19am »

on Nov 15th, 2005, 8:27pm, datura wrote:
I'd like it if the comics addressed the fact that Steph would still be alive if Batman had not fired her.


True, but I don't want it to turn into another Jason Todd style fiasco where he mopes about for the next decade or so (whenever amatuer writers want to prove that they can handle something "big," forever diminishing the power of the initial death etc...) until they only bring her back in "a really sleazy stunt" (to quote one of the only intelligent things O'Neal has said that I can remember offhand).

That's the one thing I really have against Jeph Loeb and Hush. If it wasn't for that story line we can only hope that Jason Todd would stay dead. Although it is interesting seeing what he would have to say for himself, I just wish that when something big happens in the DC universe that it can actually have permanent effect. Barbara Gordon being shot by the Joker was big, and thankfully they made something worthwile, deep, and interesting out of it. A Death in the Family gave a character stuck in a rut a much needed kick start - I never minded Todd being mentioned after that, it was only logical and expected that people would talk about him and he wouldn't be forgotten. However bringing him back under the reign of largely incompitent writers just attempts to shit on almost everything DC have done since his death at the hands of actual talent.

Whoops, kind of went off on a tangent. But with Steph I am annoyed at the lack of originality as they tried to turn her into Jason Todd Mark2. I can only hope that they just leave the poor girl alone instead of bastardising her memory with another "sleazy stunt" like they are pulling now with Todd. But in all honesty I'd prefer it if they just kept her as Robin, at least for a little while longer in order to explore a character that after so long, was suddenly filled with so much (wasted) potential.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #6 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 09:14am »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 06:19am, Nick wrote:
True, but I don't want it to turn into another Jason Todd style fiasco where he mopes about for the next decade or so...


Agreed. I just meant a three issue arch that explored the issue. It seems pretty obvious that if she had stayed Robin Steph would still be alive, but Bruce did have good reason for firing her. He was not directly responsible for her death, but she would be alive if he handled things differently. If I had the chance to write a Batman story, this would be it.

on Nov 16th, 2005, 06:19am, Nick wrote:
That's the one thing I really have against Jeph Loeb and Hush. If it wasn't for that story line we can only hope that Jason Todd would stay dead.


Though, to play devil's/Leob's advocate, just because Jason Todd was invoked in the story doesn't mean that anyone needed to bring him back to life. it made sense the Hush would have used Jason Todd's image to get to Bruce, but to make it really Jason Todd in later issues in a sloppy/cheap/stupid writing wasn't exactly Leob's fault. Nor is all the garbage about Hush in Gotham Knights. However, it is Leob's fault that every issues involves the memory of Jason in some way.

on Nov 16th, 2005, 06:19am, Nick wrote:
But with Steph I am annoyed at the lack of originality as they tried to turn her into Jason Todd Mark2. I can only hope that they just leave the poor girl alone instead of bastardising her memory with another "sleazy stunt" like they are pulling now with Todd. But in all honesty I'd prefer it if they just kept her as Robin, at least for a little while longer in order to explore a character that after so long, was suddenly filled with so much (wasted) potential.


Can I get a witness?
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #7 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 10:06am »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 09:14am, datura wrote:
Agreed. I just meant a three issue arch that explored the issue. It seems pretty obvious that if she had stayed Robin Steph would still be alive, but Bruce did have good reason for firing her. He was not directly responsible for her death, but she would be alive if he handled things differently. If I had the chance to write a Batman story, this would be it.


Yeah I could handle that, as long as they don't keep on at it for years to come! I'm hoping we get a One-Shot or two in the near(ish) future with Steph as Robin; with, say, Scott Hampton on the art! In fact a full painted story in the vain or Arkham Asylum or War on Crime (and of course Night Cries) would be amazing! Seeing Steph in that costume with such glorious painted realism would really make me happy!

on Nov 16th, 2005, 09:14am, datura wrote:
Though, to play devil's/Leob's advocate, just because Jason Todd was invoked in the story doesn't mean that anyone needed to bring him back to life. it made sense the Hush would have used Jason Todd's image to get to Bruce, but to make it really Jason Todd in later issues in a sloppy/cheap/stupid writing wasn't exactly Leob's fault. Nor is all the garbage about Hush in Gotham Knights. However, it is Leob's fault that every issues involves the memory of Jason in some way.


True, but I get the feeling that if Loeb had never used Todd then perhaps nobody else would have thought how "wonderful" it would be to actually bring him back. We need Loeb and Lee back together for the proper Hush sequel to properly round it all off and bring the story to a satisfactory conclusion; so then we can all get on with our lives!
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 11:53am »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 10:06am, Nick wrote:
We need Loeb and Lee back together for the proper Hush sequel to properly round it all off and bring the story to a satisfactory conclusion; so then we can all get on with our lives!


Too bad he just signed a 2-3 year exclusive with Marvel...
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 11:57am »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 11:53am, snipe wrote:
Too bad he just signed a 2-3 year exclusive with Marvel...


Oh great, three more years of "fun" as DC dance around the issue of Hush and Todd. Wonderful.

Does this Marvel contract affect his Smallville TV commitments in any way? Not that it really affects me because I'm completely missing the latest series at the moment. I have no way of watching it when it hits England and my university has a strict no downloads policy.
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 16th, 2005, 7:51pm »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 11:57am, Nick wrote:
Does this Marvel contract affect his Smallville TV commitments in any way? Not that it really affects me because I'm completely missing the latest series at the moment. I have no way of watching it when it hits England and my university has a strict no downloads policy.


I don't think so, it says that he can't do any DC COMICS, not exactly WB Television.

And you really are missing out, not having Smallville on, it's been a kickass season, so far. cheesy
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #11 on: Nov 17th, 2005, 04:07am »

on Nov 16th, 2005, 7:51pm, CapedCrusaderJRK wrote:
I don't think so, it says that he can't do any DC COMICS, not exactly WB Television.

And you really are missing out, not having Smallville on, it's been a kickass season, so far. cheesy


I'm surpirised by that judging by the last two seasosns. Have they really got back on track again?
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #12 on: Nov 17th, 2005, 10:23am »

on Nov 17th, 2005, 04:07am, Nick wrote:
I'm surpirised by that judging by the last two seasosns. Have they really got back on track again?


The bigginning was a bit wierd (most of the advertisements were talking about how Clark and Lana finally fornicated), but with the appearence of Brainiac, there's been some very good episodes (my personal favorite so far is "Splinter," where Clark starts having paranoid delusions after coming into contact with silver Kryptonite).
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 2nd, 2006, 08:33am »

on Nov 15th, 2005, 8:27pm, datura wrote:
I'd like it if the comics addressed the fact that Steph would still be alive if Batman had not fired her.


I was just reading over some old threads when I saw this, and I remembered that it was addressed in War Crimes, Batman fireing her resulted in her injuries, that's pretty much undeniable, although probably unforseeable on his part. But it was Leslie who chose to let Steph die, it was Leslie who could have saved her IF she wanted to. So fortunately this means we wont have Jason Todd Mark 2 in Steph as Batman knows he is not responsible for her death because the girl should have lived. And I bloody well hope it means she wont be brought back as "A really sleazy stunt..."
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xx Re: Did you like Steph as Robin?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 2nd, 2006, 08:22am »

Personally, I don't think Bruce gets off the hook because of the whole Leslie thing. He claims to "own" Gotham City and monitor all the vigilante activity therein, but he couldn't keep Steph off the streets? Maybe it was impossible to keep such a head strong girl out of a mask, but I think it is very much out of character for Bruce to claim no responsiblity in her death.
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