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snipe
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xx Rearranging the characters?
« Thread started on: Jun 5th, 2009, 6:03pm »

Spoilers, of course.

Now that we have a shakeup in who is behind the masks, should I rearrange the contents of the site? Should I put the Dick Grayson Robin stuff under Robin? Should I put the new Batman (or "Batwing") stuff under Nightwing? Should I leave it as is, as things will go back to normal in a year or so?

My thoughts:
Continue the 'Bat' titles (including Detective starring Batwoman) in the Batman section.
Move the Robin stuff from the Nightwing section into the Robin section and place the new Red Robin stuff there.
Leave the Nightwing section with only Nightwing items (no Batman, no Robin there).

And your thoughts?
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #1 on: Jun 14th, 2009, 10:19am »

Cool, thanks for your thoughts. rolleyes
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #2 on: Jun 14th, 2009, 1:29pm »

I can't read it due to the spoilers.

Go with your gut instinct. I know someone else assumed the Bat mantle. If this is about changing section of the site, I would say: the only way to keep it structured is by title.

If no one answers, no cares so you can do what you like. If you receive complaints afterwards 1) you are Master Dick 2) refer to this thread.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #3 on: Aug 16th, 2009, 12:46pm »

This place has a site that goes along with the forums?

TheBatSquad Fact #21: TheBatSquad actually is more than a forum. It is a site that contains a tremendous amount of information on everything that is Batman comics.

...Oh, right! I remember. Haven't looked at that since I joined. I think that for simplicities sake you should list a character by their real name as opposed to codename. The page could look like this:

SPOILER BELOW: I realize Midnighter says he hasn't read about it so don't read below if you aren't up to date with recent changes in the Bat-books.

The BatSquad
Jean Paul Valley (Azrael, Batman III)
Barbara Gordon (Batgirl, Oracle)
Cassandra Caine (Batgirl III)
Bruce Wayne (Batman)
Selina Kyle (Catwoman)
Dick Grayson (Robin, Nightwing, Batman IV)
Tim Drake (Robin III, Red Robin)

Personally, I like the person under the mask and not the facade. I think that it would be simpler for it's intended purpose (following the adventures of a character) if you went with real names instead of costumed names.

Just my two cents.

Also, did you know you have a poll feature? I just discovered that and I think it's really cool. You should do this as a poll and give options. I'm putting a poll on everything now!!!

...okay, maybe not everything...
« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2009, 12:51pm by midLfinger » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 17th, 2009, 5:09pm »

on Aug 16th, 2009, 12:46pm, midLfinger wrote:
The BatSquad
Jean Paul Valley (Azrael, Batman III)
Barbara Gordon (Batgirl, Oracle)
Cassandra Caine (Batgirl III)
Bruce Wayne (Batman)
Selina Kyle (Catwoman)
Dick Grayson (Robin, Nightwing, Batman IV)
Tim Drake (Robin III, Red Robin)


Wait, why is Jean Paul Valley Batman III? I thought he was Batman II, which would make Dick Grayson Batman III. And shouldn't Cassandra Cain be Batgirl II, not III? Oh, but I forgot about Huntress being Batgirl briefly during No Man's Land. I guess that makes her Batgirl II.

We could actually make it really confusing and make Bruce Wayne Batman I, III, and V. Then Jean Paul could be Batman II, and Dick could be Batman IV and VI. It makes sense if you think about it. But I'm kidding, of course. Much too confusing.

Anyway, I agree that it should be arranged by the characters' real names. That just makes more sense, since most of the hero names have been used by multiple characters.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 17th, 2009, 7:04pm »

on Aug 17th, 2009, 5:09pm, TurkeyMoose wrote:
Wait, why is Jean Paul Valley Batman III? I thought he was Batman II, which would make Dick Grayson Batman III. And shouldn't Cassandra Cain be Batgirl II, not III? Oh, but I forgot about Huntress being Batgirl briefly during No Man's Land. I guess that makes her Batgirl II.


That's why I refuse to use numbers wink

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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #6 on: Aug 17th, 2009, 10:08pm »

Why number it at all? The public (citizens of Gotham) do not see the difference. And what comic reader in their right mind would really want that numbering?

Dividing by the people behind the masks seems logical.
I still order my comics by title though.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #7 on: Aug 17th, 2009, 11:07pm »

Batman II is Hugo Strange.

The numbering is helpful in that a guy like myself (apparently in the minority on TheSquad) likes to know which Batman he's reading about. It's better than saying, "Batman (Hugo Strange)." I rarely read comics in order of publication. This is especially true of DC comics as there is so much Year One and Two stuff made that if you want to follow a particular character it's best to collect them in chronological order and read them that way. The site has helped me tons in going back and reading Batman's origin this way.

I can also see the confusion with the numerals. I had to wikipedia to make sure my memory was accurate about how many Batmen there had been. I also still don't know if Tim Drake is Red Robin II or III or higher. Should other universes count? There's also a pre-crisis Batgirl and various alternates of other characters.

TheBatSquad Fact #438: No discussion about continuity is ever resolved... never.
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2009, 11:12pm by midLfinger » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #8 on: Aug 18th, 2009, 05:20am »

on Aug 17th, 2009, 10:08pm, TheMidnighter wrote:
Dividing by the people behind the masks seems logical.
I still order my comics by title though.


In my collection, I put Red Robin #1 right behind the last issue of Robin. Batman & Robin (right now) is behind the last issue of Nightwing. Sirens is after Catwoman.

on Aug 17th, 2009, 11:07pm, midLfinger wrote:
Batman II is Hugo Strange.


That's just silly. If you're going to count him, you have to count Thomas Wayne and Alfred, too. TW wore a bat costume once to a party and Alfred (plus Dick and Tim for that matter) made appearances in the suit when Bruce was either unavailable or present (to throw people off the secret identity).
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2009, 05:20am by snipe » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #9 on: Aug 19th, 2009, 10:23pm »

on Aug 18th, 2009, 05:20am, snipe wrote:
That's just silly. If you're going to count him, you have to count Thomas Wayne and Alfred, too. TW wore a bat costume once to a party and Alfred (plus Dick and Tim for that matter) made appearances in the suit when Bruce was either unavailable or present (to throw people off the secret identity).


I'm sure your judgement on who should and shouldn't count is much better than mine, Snipe. You know more about Batman than I know about... anybody, after all.

I also checked your other thread and you have thouroughly proven that youcould hand me my ass at naming who's been who in the DCU.

However, I name Strange because, although his pre-COIE appearances are very apparently not canon and, therefore those times wearing Batman's costume don't count, post-COIE he first appeared in a Legends of the Dark Knight arc in late 1990. This was a Year One story.

He returns nearly a decade later in Gotham Knights #8 in Late 2000.

In this story, the LOTDK story is referred to as the last time Batman saw him.

The story also shows him (as Batman) kidnapping Catwoman 6 months prior to the events of this story.

Additionally, Dick Grayson is Nightwing in this story whereas he wasn't even Robin yet when Batman thought strange died (it was a Year One story).

I'm not sure how long Dick was Robin before becoming Nightwing but I'd assume that it was at least a few years and that means a guy who's obsessed with being Batman successfully faked his death for years and pretended to be Batman for at least 6 months before Batman realized it was happening. Who knows how many people he came across who believed he WAS Batman. He had Catwoman convinced.

Simply based on the fact that anyone can write a story and have it based on something that happened within the six months (or potentially longer) he was Batman I feel Strange counts. I believe he counts more than Alfred and Thomas Wayne and he was Batman longer than Dick has been and, arguably, longer than Valley was.

Now I'm sure you can name something that'll prove me entirely wrong but that was just my thinking at the time.

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« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2009, 10:35pm by midLfinger » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #10 on: Aug 20th, 2009, 02:06am »

But Strange never was Batman officially, in the sense that he was sanctioned by home base.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #11 on: Aug 20th, 2009, 05:20am »

on Aug 19th, 2009, 10:23pm, midLfinger wrote:
I'm sure your judgement on who should and shouldn't count is much better than mine, Snipe. You know more about Batman than I know about... anybody, after all.


I'm not saying he didn't wear the costume, I'm saying it's silly to count him as a former Batman simply due to the fact that (1) he's a "bad guy" and (2) like MK said, he wasn't recognized as "Batman" - he was Hugo Strange in a Batman costume.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #12 on: Aug 20th, 2009, 09:03am »

on Aug 20th, 2009, 05:20am, snipe wrote:
I'm not saying he didn't wear the costume, I'm saying it's silly to count him as a former Batman simply due to the fact that (1) he's a "bad guy" and (2) like MK said, he wasn't recognized as "Batman" - he was Hugo Strange in a Batman costume.


Initially, the thought of the countless characters who've taken identities (without permission) and done so on different sides of the law from their predecessors (Phil Urich and Normie Osborn were both good Green Goblins who didn't ask Norman if it was okay) as well as just different characters who've taken names without permission (Mac Gargan is Venom right now) but both of your points, I believe, are responded to in the Bat-books.

I'm a little fuzzy on the whole Dick becoming Batman thing but I believe (and of course I may be mistaken since I've only read summaries) that Bruce left Dick a message that told him not to become Batman but to continue as Nightwing. If I'm understanding that correctly (and, of course, I may not be) than Dick basically stole the identity much like Strange did. Actually, in Strange's case, Bruce didn't directly say, "don't take my identity," so Dick really grave robbed a guy who really didn't want his identity taken by this particular grave robber (again, I may be entirely wrong about Bruce having requested that he not become Batman. Correct me if I am.)

Your other point was that Strange was a villain. Valley let a villain die and, in doing so, caused an innocent person to die. At what point did he stop being Batman? When he became a villain or when Bruce regained the identity? Whether you're a hero or villain doesn't matter. Is Tim not Red Robin because it was a villainous identity before?
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #13 on: Aug 20th, 2009, 09:40am »

I will not believe you do not see the difference between Dick Grayson as Batman and Hugo Strange as Batman. It's all about the intentions of the person behind the mask -- the original point of discussion.

You overcomplicate this tremendously.
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xx Re: Rearranging the characters?
« Reply #14 on: Aug 20th, 2009, 4:32pm »

Yes, Bruce directly (or through "read this if I die" message) told Dick not to take over as Batman. I guess perception is the key point at least in my head.
The DCU at large perceives Dick to be Batman right now (he'll even be joining the JLA soon). They perceived JPV to be Batman during his time. At no time was there ever a perception that Hugo Strange, Alfred, etc. was Batman. Those were DEceptions (be they of good or ill intentions).
In my eyes, JPV ceased being Batman when Bruce returned and JPV no longer wore the suit (same as Dick in Prodigal). When his suit turned into red armor, he was still Batman.
If you're going to count Hugo and Alfred as a "numbered" Batmen, then you'll also have to count every child who dressed up for Halloween, too. Just because they wore the (or "a") suit doesn't mean they *were* Batman. Maybe in their heads.
This "perception" actually brings up another point about the current storylines - Dick doesn't see himself as Batman. According to him and Alfred, he's simply playing a part. I guess that can start a whole new discussion.
Again, like most everything here, this is how I see it, not how DC editorial and their writers see it. They may have a completely different thought process.
An innocent was not killed by JPV, if I remember correctly (and this may not be the case since it's been several years since I read KQ), he chose not to save someone from certain death and the person was a serial killer.

Keep it up, guys - we haven't had this much action on the boards in forever cheesy
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