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xx Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Thread started on: Dec 27th, 2015, 08:57am »

I figured we could keep the other thread spoiler free and start a new one. It's been out over a week, it's time.
I've only seen it once - on opening day. My thoughts upon further viewings may change. Overall, I liked the movie. It was entertaining. It just didn't feel like Star Wars to me. It felt isolated. None of the characters seemed to have the closeness as we're used to. Even the prequels got that right. Poe and Finn made a connection, but they didn't stick together. Rey and Finn: same thing. Han and Leia were estranged. R2D2 was shut down, so he and C3PO didn't have camaraderie. Luke was AWOL, out being a Jedi quitter like his two masters.
Also, what the fuck is the Resistance? Why is it a faction to itself rather than being a part of the Republic? Are the Republic and First Order at a truce and the Resistance has pulled away to fight?

my problems:

1. Chewbacca should have been the one to console Leia after Han's death, not Rey - a stranger.
2. Luke going into hiding like Yoda and Obi Wan
3. another Death Star
4. a force user actively searching out the dark side
5. Han / Chewie letting the Falcon get away for years
6. the Falcon being able to fly after being moth-balled for years
7. Rey's innate force ability with no training
8. a Republic and a Resistance exists
9. Chewbacca didn't get the kill shot on Kylo Ren
10. over the top nazi references

what i liked:

1. Kylo Ren's tantrums
2. Stormtroopers with personality
3. Leia felt Han's death.
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #1 on: Dec 27th, 2015, 09:02am »

Something that could *fix* the story for me. It's a conjecture / theory I read last week. Don't remember where, so I don't have a link, but here goes:

Kylo Ren has not gone over to the dark side. He's a Jedi sleeper / secret agent being put in position to kill Snoke.
His "Knights of Ren" are actually the Jedi students he supposedly killed.
He had to kill his father (who offered to do what ever was needed) to show Snoke he he was "all in."
Ren didn't kill Rey or Finn because there was no need. He didn't see them posing a threat to him or his mission and there were no witnesses.
He's trying to fulfill Anakin's destiny, not Darth Vader's.
Luke is in hiding, training his daughter from afar - like Yoda trained Obi-Wan after the twins were born.
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #2 on: Jan 8th, 2016, 5:54pm »

Saw it again last night. An addendum to the prior post:
Perhaps bringing "balance to the force" means being trained in both the Light and Dark aspects?
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #3 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 12:31am »

TurkeyMoose, you perhaps should ignore this post if you are at risk of having another tantrum and making personal attacks again. A civilised debate is always good (and why I enjoy the general maturity of this forum above all others making it the only place online I post at), but such hostility at the other thread is not welcome.

I've let this mull around in my mind for some time, and my views haven't changed at all since my post in the other thread, I'll just go into them a bit more. Pretty much agree with everything you say in your first post Snipe!
---

It is still a completely neutral film for me. Star Wars was made to sustain as a standalone film should it not prove to be successful. Of course there were dangling plot points ripe for development, but if another film had never been made, it would still have been quite satisfactory. This film; however, is not. Going in as a first part of a planned out Trilogy meant too much plot was teased but not developed. Rather than feeling like the plot was satisfactorily told leaving seeds for the future, it felt like stuff was being actively withheld for the future (and it is). So I really don't feel I can give a definitive viewpoint on it until the Trilogy is completed.

"This will begin to make things right..." Depending on where they go with this, quite possibly the most appropriate first line of a film I can think of. Hell, they could have made this the goddamned Episode title of the film (or at least a tagline). Star Wars Episode VII: This Will Begin To Make Things Right. Yeah, I think that works.

  • People hate Rey because she was too perfect. As I said before, I liked her hitting the ground running. I've read people want to see her training and slowly developing. We've had that already, I don't really need another Dagaboh. Kicking up the pace already is refreshing. Hell, if they do actually want to make her an all powerful unstoppable force of nature like the galaxy has never known before (ie - a female Kyle Katarn), I'm okay with that. I don't think they'll go quite that far though, it is probably unwise to make a definitive 'most powerful Jedi ever' in the films, even if people do love Katarn for it.

  • People hate Darth Revan Jr because of his outbursts. Exactly as I said before, I liked him wanting to be Vader, but not being Vader. Lacking that cool and calculated calm that original Vader so effortlessly imbued is necessary to differentiate him, and again, refreshing. One of my friends made an excellent observation saying "He is how Anakin should have been in the Prequels."

  • Finn was boring to me. Did nothing to make me dislike him, did nothing to make me like him either. He can go either way depending on what they do with him. He had a backstory, that didn't go anywhere. He went on an adventure, but other than rescuing Poe at the start, didn't really achieve a lot. He is a hollow ball of nothingness, ripe for development.

  • Maz Kanata is the one new character I truly hated. Not only was she irritating beyond belief, but she was a vile creation of bad CGI that felt completely out of place with the more practical world around her. Did not like the character one bit. I know we'll see her again, but I would rather we didn't. The deleted scene released to the internet a while back clearly shows her to be a Jedi, which I suspected, and still don't care. Would have been quite happy to see her killed in the siege.

  • BB-8, now this is more like it. The love and effort put into making you an almost entirely practical effect is truly commendable. Rather than going down the lazy CGI route, you were a worthy achievement in film making. And a good character too.

  • R2-D2, swearing at C3-PO, good times.

  • C3-PO, nobody cares how you got your red arm. No I will not be reading the fucking comic about it. C3-PO was as irritating as ever, which is a good thing really, makes R2-D2 swearing at him a very enjoyable pay off.

  • Poe. Didn't really have much of a character at all, but Oscar Isaac is so bloody charismatic he shot to the top of my favourite new characters (who aren't BB-8), which is unlikely he would have if played by most other people. Very interesting to see him interact with Domhnall Gleason, I greatly enjoyed Ex Machina, wonderful film that was. I know he did a film with Adam Driver too, I think I should watch that.

  • Speaking of Domhnall Gleason. He just seemed so unsuited to the character he was playing... Or more so, this is Domnhall Gleason so he probably played his character perfectly, and it is his character who is so unsuited to the position that he is in. I'd be willing to put money on this being a very deliberate choice and in no way anything to do with poor casting.

  • Gollum had no reason to be a fully CG creation. He was a hologram character, unless he really is that massive when we meet him, there was no reason whatsoever he could not have been done with practical effects, which is very disappointing. There is no reason to believe he actually is that big either, holograms can be any size they want, and his giant scale is likely an intimidation thing. I love Andy Serkis, so I definitely hope there are good things ahead for this character. I'd be so happy if he actually was Hobbit sized, and the giant hologram is a massive overcompensation. I've heard theories that he was Emperor Palapatine's master and indirectly Anakin's father who created Anakin's awful immaculate conception. I can't stress enough how much I do not want this to be the case. I know TurkeyMoose will attack me for this, but I (and all my friends who share the exact same point of view on this) want the Prequels to be fully ignored going forward. Anything that attempts to connect with them will only hurt these new films in the eyes of a great number of fans of classic Star Wars. It will likely satisfy modern Star Wars audiences, but the classic hardcore base are an extremely vocal bunch. It is a dangerous line to tread. So if TurkeyMoose has massive problems with my view on this, I am nothing compared to the true Star Wars elite when it comes to voicing my dissatisfaction with the Post-1997 destruction and reforming of the Star Wars universe, they are on another level entirely.

  • The Han Solo situation. Yes, I am pissed. But if they handle this well, it could be a very impactful decision. Yes, the decision was almost certainly Harrison Ford's. He wanted Solo to die in Empire, then he really wanted Solo to die in Jedi, having a younger Fanboy showrunner (as it were) probably allowed him to finally get his wish. He probably only agreed to come back at all if Solo finally died, and I would rather see him have an on-screen and meaningful death than be written out off-screen. Of course I don't like seeing a beloved character die, but in a way it is good to that if the most iconic and beloved of all the Star Wars characters (aside from Vader of course) isn't off limits, then anything can happen...


And that brings me to the end, because now they need to blaze a bold new direction. The Force Awakens felt too close to Star Wars for me. I said before that it was beat for beat and thematically practically a remake. Which is fine, I guess, for the first in a new series. But now they need to go off on a bold new direction and do things that we haven't seen before. We need to feel like anything could happen, not get Empire Strikes Back 2 and Return Of The Jedi 2. At the moment Han Solo's death feels a bit hollow and wasted, particularly the lack of a memorial scene for him at the end (I realise Obi-Wan Kenobi didn't get a memorial in Star Wars and this recycles the same plot points, but we hadn't followed his story before, Han's we had) . But that is another aspect of this film only being a chapter, if developed well it could be fully justified and impactful.

So the film remains neutral to me. There was a lot to like, there was stuff to dislike, and a whole lot so undeveloped who knows whether it is good or bad yet. Final thoughts to come in 2019 or so, but a few more interim thoughts to come in between of course. wink
« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016, 12:33am by Nick » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #4 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 07:10am »

on Feb 7th, 2016, 12:31am, Nick wrote:
TurkeyMoose, you perhaps should ignore this post if you are at risk of having another tantrum and making personal attacks again. A civilised debate is always good (and why I enjoy the general maturity of this forum above all others making it the only place online I post at), but such hostility at the other thread is not welcome.

I actually wouldn't have addressed you any further on this subject but you name-dropping me here clearly indicates that you want a response from me so I will oblige.

First of all, I never had any "tantrums". I'm simply telling it like it is. You post elitist crap like that in almost every post you make on any topic here, and for me, having just enjoyed the entire saga and feeling good about it, your post denigrating it and passive-aggressively insulting the sophistication of those who enjoy it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

on Feb 7th, 2016, 12:31am, Nick wrote:
I know TurkeyMoose will attack me for this, but I (and all my friends who share the exact same point of view on this) want the Prequels to be fully ignored going forward. Anything that attempts to connect with them will only hurt these new films in the eyes of a great number of fans of classic Star Wars. It will likely satisfy modern Star Wars audiences, but the classic hardcore base are an extremely vocal bunch. It is a dangerous line to tread. So if TurkeyMoose has massive problems with my view on this, I am nothing compared to the true Star Wars elite when it comes to voicing my dissatisfaction with the Post-1997 destruction and reforming of the Star Wars universe, they are on another level entirely.

Oh, you have friends that agree with you? You think that somehow makes your opinion more valid? Well aren't you just so special. The thing is, there wouldn't be much of a reason to mention the prequels anyway since that time period is so long ago. But they certainly won't contradict them without explanation. You and your friends can continue to pretend the prequels didn't happen, and you will continue to be wrong. Even I don't love the prequels, but you can't go through life pretending that the parts you don't like in things are not real. "It's all real. All of it."

on Feb 7th, 2016, 12:31am, Nick wrote:
a vile creation of bad CGI... The love and effort put into making you an almost entirely practical effect... the lazy CGI route... no reason to be a fully CG creation... no reason whatsoever he could not have been done with practical effects

This is such a childish way of looking at things. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the subject by watching this video.
« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016, 07:20am by TurkeyMoose » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #5 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 07:51am »

Actually, I was suggesting you skip because I knew my post would contain opinions you would find objectionable and I thought it would be preferable for everone else, but that I would welcome a debate if you wanted to engage without personal attacks. I am genuinely sorry I bothered. You clearly have taken personal issue to me, there's nothing I can do about that other than try to get along. I don't care that you think differently to me, I have no issue with you whatsoever because I don't even know you. Let's both just cool it alright? Truce? I don't want to ruin this rather awesome forum for everyone else, and I'm sure you don't either. I bet we both agree on that at least.
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #6 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 08:24am »

Yes, we do agree on that. And I wouldn't say I have a personal issue with you. As you say, we don't know each other in real life. I'm only responding to posts on a forum. I'm sure everyone here are decent people. smiley

And I don't mind reading differing viewpoints, so I wouldn't want to skip a post just because the opinion is opposed to mine, especially when my username is mentioned specifically. That's just too tempting. tongue

I apologize if my objections come off as vitriolic. Perhaps I'm not good at debating in that regard. For me, if I'm not emotionally invested in the debate to the point that I'm a little riled up, I typically won't get involved at all, which may be why a response from me sometimes includes a few colorful words here and there.

Despite everything I've said, I actually would like to try to get along as well. Especially since we're just about the only people who post here anymore. tongue
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #7 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 08:39am »

Peachy. cheesy

Edit: Obviously I'm not saying how great it is we're the only ones posting. wink
« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016, 08:40am by Nick » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #8 on: Feb 7th, 2016, 09:14am »

on Feb 7th, 2016, 08:24am, TurkeyMoose wrote:
Especially since we're just about the only people who post here anymore. tongue


That does suck angry
Not that you guys suck. You do, obviously, but it also sucks that no one else is around anymore...
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xx Re: Star Wars 7: The Force Awakens SPOILERS
« Reply #9 on: Feb 18th, 2016, 4:46pm »

I still read the forums! I just haven't been very vocal during my stays since I haven't read a lot of comics lately and don't have an outspoken opinion on Star Wars The Force Awakens.
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